5 Classes in XC
09/22/2018 12:35:16 AM
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I was told by MSHSAA that a new policy was in the works to add a class/classes to all activities when the top classes' enrollment disparity reached more than 2x the top from the bottom.
I was told by MSHSAA that a new policy was in the works to add a class/classes to all activities when the top classes' enrollment disparity reached more than 2x the top from the bottom.
09/27/2018 10:02:52 AM
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I was told that the policy they are trying to put in place for all activities will prevent the largest school in the top classes from being more than 2x the (9-11 grade enrollment from the end of the prior year) smallest in that class. Then based on that, each class would be equal. The exception will be class 1 will now have the least number of schools. If there are enough schools to bring class 1 to larger than the other classes, then a new class needs to be added. TL;DR - Looks likely to be an equal breakdown with less disparity between school sizes. Maybe more classes for multiple activities.
I was told that the policy they are trying to put in place for all activities will prevent the largest school in the top classes from being more than 2x the (9-11 grade enrollment from the end of the prior year) smallest in that class. Then based on that, each class would be equal. The exception will be class 1 will now have the least number of schools. If there are enough schools to bring class 1 to larger than the other classes, then a new class needs to be added.

TL;DR - Looks likely to be an equal breakdown with less disparity between school sizes. Maybe more classes for multiple activities.
09/27/2018 1:02:20 PM
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Just curious if anyone has thought this far in advance....Who will qualify for state if we go to 5 classes? Will class 5 still get sectionals with Top 4 teams and Top 30 individual? Will class 4 be top4 and top 30 or back to the smaller class top2 and top 15 with no sectionals.
Just curious if anyone has thought this far in advance....Who will qualify for state if we go to 5 classes?

Will class 5 still get sectionals with Top 4 teams and Top 30 individual?

Will class 4 be top4 and top 30 or back to the smaller class top2 and top 15 with no sectionals.
09/27/2018 1:40:47 PM
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Hays, If we go to 5 classes will there be sectionals for classes 1-3 and are the expanding the field?. What do you see in your crystal ball Zin Master.
Hays,
If we go to 5 classes will there be sectionals for classes 1-3 and are the expanding the field?. What do you see in your crystal ball Zin Master.
09/27/2018 2:20:58 PM
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I think Hays said that there will not be sectionals in any class.
I think Hays said that there will not be sectionals in any class.
09/27/2018 2:42:49 PM
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@palmtree Pretty much what I understood from the CC Advisory Committee from 2 years ago. Justin, I do not see the 2X rule starting from the bottom. Otherwise, since the smallest CC school has an enrollment of 16, there would only be 4 schools in Class 1 as there are only 4 schools with enrollments 32 and under and create 7 classes overall. Common sense says this should start from the top with a catchall in Class 1.
@palmtree
Pretty much what I understood from the CC Advisory Committee from 2 years ago.
Justin, I do not see the 2X rule starting from the bottom. Otherwise, since the smallest CC school has an enrollment of 16, there would only be 4 schools in Class 1 as there are only 4 schools with enrollments 32 and under and create 7 classes overall. Common sense says this should start from the top with a catchall in Class 1.
09/27/2018 3:23:55 PM
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@Hays Do you know how many schools field a scoring team? As a pure guess, I estimated 440. According to our AD, at a MSHSAA meeting he attended, class 1 would not be held to the 2x rule as that obviously would not work all the way down. Class 1 will have the same or less schools as every other class. After I eyeballed the enrollment numbers, I think they will have to rework the 2x number if they want to keep every class equal. That would put around 74ish schools in each class. If there are around 440 schools participating in XC, I can not see them jumping all the way to 6 classes. Of course this is multi-hand information and a little speculation on my part. All of this is likely still in the works and not going to look like this by the time a new policy is in place in a few years.
@Hays

Do you know how many schools field a scoring team? As a pure guess, I estimated 440.

According to our AD, at a MSHSAA meeting he attended, class 1 would not be held to the 2x rule as that obviously would not work all the way down. Class 1 will have the same or less schools as every other class.

After I eyeballed the enrollment numbers, I think they will have to rework the 2x number if they want to keep every class equal. That would put around 74ish schools in each class. If there are around 440 schools participating in XC, I can not see them jumping all the way to 6 classes.

Of course this is multi-hand information and a little speculation on my part. All of this is likely still in the works and not going to look like this by the time a new policy is in place in a few years.
09/27/2018 3:44:23 PM
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Question: I recently sent this to MSHSAA. Should we go ahead with it or just trust that MSHSAA is going to get this accomplished? Thanks in advance. PETITION TO AMEND MSHSAA BY-LAW 5.1.4 and ADD 5.1.17 We the undersigned, in accord with Article VI, Section 3, of the MSHSAA Constitution, petition to have the following proposal placed on the 2018 Annual Election Ballot. A valid signature is that of only the school principal or superintendent of a MSHSAA member high school. REQUESTED BY JAKE HOLT, CROSS COUNTRY COACH, EAST NEWTON HIGH SCHOOL. Rationale from petitioner: The present four class system with equal enrollment breaks has created a distorted range of enrollment sizes in Class 3 and 4. The size disparity between schools with an enrollment of 305 students (grades 9-11) to 719 students (grades 9-11) for class 3 creates a situation where Class 3 schools are competing against schools with nearly 2.5 times their size. In Class 4, the range is 720 students to 1834 students (grades 9-11); this again creates an extreme in enrollment figures. A five class system could reduce the disparity to closer to two times the smallest schools in the top 3 classes. This amendment, if adopted by member schools, would add a provision to the by-laws which would mandate that five classes are required for cross country schools in the state series regardless of the number of registered schools. To amend MSHSAA By-Law 5.1.4 through 5.1.17 as follows: Classifications: Member high schools, as defined in Article III, Section 1, shall be divided into a maximum of six classes, based on the number of schools registered for districts in the activity, for competition in district and state athletic tournaments or meets. Affiliate Registered Schools are not eligible for districts or the state series. In order for a district and state series to be sponsored by MSHSAA for an activity, a minimum of 50 schools in three Board Districts must be registered for the activity for a period of two consecutive years. (See By-Law 5.2, Emerging Activities.) The procedure for grouping schools into classes for each sport shall be established by the Board of Directors. Other than specified exceptions (By-Laws 5.1.7 through 5.1.16) the number of classes in each activity shall be based on the number of schools entering the state series in that sport as follows: a. One class -- 50 through 128 schools. b. Two classes -- 129 through 192 schools. c. Three classes -- 193 schools through 256 schools. d. Four classes -- 257 through 512 schools. e. Five classes -- 513 through 576 schools. f. Six classes -- 577 or more schools New 5.1.17: Cross Country: Schools participating in cross country shall be divided into five classes on the basis of enrollment for competition in the state cross country meet series.
Question: I recently sent this to MSHSAA. Should we go ahead with it or just trust that MSHSAA is going to get this accomplished? Thanks in advance.

PETITION TO AMEND MSHSAA BY-LAW 5.1.4 and ADD 5.1.17

We the undersigned, in accord with Article VI, Section 3, of the MSHSAA Constitution, petition to have the following proposal placed on the 2018 Annual Election Ballot.

A valid signature is that of only the school principal or superintendent of a MSHSAA member high school.

REQUESTED BY JAKE HOLT, CROSS COUNTRY COACH, EAST NEWTON HIGH SCHOOL.

Rationale from petitioner: The present four class system with equal enrollment breaks has created a distorted range of enrollment sizes in Class 3 and 4. The size disparity between schools with an enrollment of 305 students (grades 9-11) to 719 students (grades 9-11) for class 3 creates a situation where Class 3 schools are competing against schools with nearly 2.5 times their size. In Class 4, the range is 720 students to 1834 students (grades 9-11); this again creates an extreme in enrollment figures. A five class system could reduce the disparity to closer to two times the smallest schools in the top 3 classes.

This amendment, if adopted by member schools, would add a provision to the by-laws which would mandate that five classes are required for cross country schools in the state series regardless of the number of registered schools.

To amend MSHSAA By-Law 5.1.4 through 5.1.17 as follows:

Classifications: Member high schools, as defined in Article III, Section 1, shall be divided into a maximum of six classes, based on the number of schools registered for districts in the activity, for competition in district and state athletic tournaments or meets. Affiliate Registered Schools are not eligible for districts or the state series. In order for a district and state series to be sponsored by MSHSAA for an activity, a minimum of 50 schools in three Board Districts must be registered for the activity for a period of two consecutive years. (See By-Law 5.2, Emerging Activities.) The procedure for grouping schools into classes for each sport shall be established by the Board of Directors. Other than specified exceptions (By-Laws 5.1.7 through 5.1.16) the number of classes in each activity shall be based on the number of schools entering the state series in that sport as follows:
a. One class -- 50 through 128 schools.
b. Two classes -- 129 through 192 schools.
c. Three classes -- 193 schools through 256 schools.
d. Four classes -- 257 through 512 schools.
e. Five classes -- 513 through 576 schools.
f. Six classes -- 577 or more schools

New 5.1.17: Cross Country: Schools participating in cross country shall be divided into five classes on the basis of enrollment for competition in the state cross country meet series.
09/27/2018 3:50:00 PM
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Last year there were 294 scoring teams at boys district meets and 218 on the girls side. That is out of just over 400 schools of each gender. There are probably 20+ schools that run scoring teams during but do not do so at the district meet.
Last year there were 294 scoring teams at boys district meets and 218 on the girls side. That is out of just over 400 schools of each gender. There are probably 20+ schools that run scoring teams during but do not do so at the district meet.
09/28/2018 10:42:21 AM
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Mr. Hayes you may have mentioned this already and I missed it. How many schools have cross country for the 2018-2019 school year regardless if they can field a team or not. Even though we are in class 2 district 1 I truly believe it is unfair that class 2 district 4 is so loaded. How loaded??? 5 or 6 of the top 10 schools in class 2 come from that district. Unfair for those kids. Keep in mind Valle catholic is not in that district but I feel for those kids that work their butt off. This district has become Class 3 district 1 and class 4 sectional 1 where few years ago a 16:49 didn't get out. All kids work hard. In this sport we all appreciate what athletes do. Time for a qualifier time or a way to reward these teams that are so good but will stay home because of their geographic location. Any thoughts Coaches.
Mr. Hayes you may have mentioned this already and I missed it. How many schools have cross country for the 2018-2019 school year regardless if they can field a team or not.
Even though we are in class 2 district 1 I truly believe it is unfair that class 2 district 4 is so loaded. How loaded??? 5 or 6 of the top 10 schools in class 2 come from that district. Unfair for those kids. Keep in mind Valle catholic is not in that district but I feel for those kids that work their butt off. This district has become Class 3 district 1 and class 4 sectional 1 where few years ago a 16:49 didn't get out. All kids work hard. In this sport we all appreciate what athletes do. Time for a qualifier time or a way to reward these teams that are so good but will stay home because of their geographic location. Any thoughts Coaches.
09/28/2018 11:26:56 AM
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I have 418 girls programs, 414 boys. No fair way to ever do a time qualifier.
I have 418 girls programs, 414 boys.
No fair way to ever do a time qualifier.
09/28/2018 11:52:18 AM
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What szoughaib says is very true. In a sport like this there is really no good reason to avoid a super district where there are only 4 or so large district races to see who moves on. With 4 classes it would mean around 24 teams per race (no problem now days). With 5 classes it would be even fewer. It seems to me that the main reason to have so many districts is to narrow down to the best competition in a given geographic area. You could still do that with 4 super district meets it would just be a larger area.
What szoughaib says is very true. In a sport like this there is really no good reason to avoid a super district where there are only 4 or so large district races to see who moves on. With 4 classes it would mean around 24 teams per race (no problem now days). With 5 classes it would be even fewer. It seems to me that the main reason to have so many districts is to narrow down to the best competition in a given geographic area. You could still do that with 4 super district meets it would just be a larger area.
09/28/2018 1:01:25 PM
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[quote=Hays]I have 418 girls programs, 414 boys. No fair way to ever do a time qualifier.[/quote] I would definitely agree with you there. The difference between the fastest course we run and the slowest is probably close to 90 seconds, even for pretty fit kids. That isn't even taking into account the number of courses out there that are NOT a full 5000 meters. Time qualifiers would just dumb down the sport and cause everyone to go to nothing but fast courses, which IMO ruins the essence of the sport. Unfortunately with state looking to be on a cupcake course from now on, I believe that is the direction we are going as a sport. To me this lessens one of the great life lessons that kids get from cross-country: life is tough, but if you work hard and do the best you can consistently, you can have success at some level and be proud of it. Sean Nunn Raytown South
Hays wrote:
I have 418 girls programs, 414 boys.
No fair way to ever do a time qualifier.


I would definitely agree with you there. The difference between the fastest course we run and the slowest is probably close to 90 seconds, even for pretty fit kids. That isn't even taking into account the number of courses out there that are NOT a full 5000 meters.

Time qualifiers would just dumb down the sport and cause everyone to go to nothing but fast courses, which IMO ruins the essence of the sport. Unfortunately with state looking to be on a cupcake course from now on, I believe that is the direction we are going as a sport. To me this lessens one of the great life lessons that kids get from cross-country: life is tough, but if you work hard and do the best you can consistently, you can have success at some level and be proud of it.

Sean Nunn
Raytown South
09/28/2018 1:08:54 PM
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Totally understand the difference between courses. I also understand there is NO RIGHT WAY of doing this. It is still very hard to watch good teams not make it. I also believe in life there is unfair breaks for some. I tell my kids the harder you work the luckier you become. I don't believe that will work in class 2 d 1. Class 3 d 1 or Class 4 sectional 1. I am sure I am missing some districts and I am positive track among other sports are not any better.
Totally understand the difference between courses. I also understand there is NO RIGHT WAY of doing this. It is still very hard to watch good teams not make it. I also believe in life there is unfair breaks for some. I tell my kids the harder you work the luckier you become. I don't believe that will work in class 2 d 1. Class 3 d 1 or Class 4 sectional 1. I am sure I am missing some districts and I am positive track among other sports are not any better.
09/28/2018 1:22:42 PM
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@szoughaib SuperDistricts and/or SuperSectionals are the way to go. The meets would get more of the best teams and individuals to State, they would save the state money in fees for timing companies, site usage, and possibly awards. We keep hearing how the State is having a hard time finding courses and officials; this would help solve that problem. They would also move closely mimic the scoring of the State meet in terms of size and teams/individuals. Currently, our district has 14 teams with a potential of 98 scoring runners; Sectionals can only have a max of 56 scoring runners and 8 teams, which creates an odd scoring dynamic from Districts to Sectionals to State. Last year in Class 4 we had two different Sectionals share the same course on the same day. It could just as easily have been a SuperSectional with 16 teams entered and 8 teams qualifying.
@szoughaib

SuperDistricts and/or SuperSectionals are the way to go. The meets would get more of the best teams and individuals to State, they would save the state money in fees for timing companies, site usage, and possibly awards. We keep hearing how the State is having a hard time finding courses and officials; this would help solve that problem.

They would also move closely mimic the scoring of the State meet in terms of size and teams/individuals. Currently, our district has 14 teams with a potential of 98 scoring runners; Sectionals can only have a max of 56 scoring runners and 8 teams, which creates an odd scoring dynamic from Districts to Sectionals to State.

Last year in Class 4 we had two different Sectionals share the same course on the same day. It could just as easily have been a SuperSectional with 16 teams entered and 8 teams qualifying.
09/28/2018 2:47:07 PM
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@coachebert I would tend to agree with you about having a superdistrict meet instead of a district-sectionals format. I also agree with the statement that life is not always fair. We want to try to make it as fair as possible, but sports contests will never be perfectly fair. Learning that lesson is part of growing up, and even though it is sometimes hard to learn, it is important, especially for the snowflake generation. It is also important for our kids to understand that not getting to state in a sport doesn't make you a failure. If you do the best that you can, then that is a success. Sean Nunn Raytown South
@coachebert

I would tend to agree with you about having a superdistrict meet instead of a district-sectionals format.

I also agree with the statement that life is not always fair. We want to try to make it as fair as possible, but sports contests will never be perfectly fair. Learning that lesson is part of growing up, and even though it is sometimes hard to learn, it is important, especially for the snowflake generation.

It is also important for our kids to understand that not getting to state in a sport doesn't make you a failure. If you do the best that you can, then that is a success.

Sean Nunn
Raytown South
09/28/2018 3:34:35 PM
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Class 3 District 1 can be very tough for the mentality of many of the athletes, especially in regards to building a culture of success. Most athletes from the majority of the schools will be on the outside looking in when districts comes regardless of how hard they work during the season. It will be the Festus, Herculaneum, and Notre Dame show each year, and that's to their credit, because their athletes work very hard and deserve it. I would be for anything that could allow talented kids the opportunity to run, and not stay at home after districts, however, I also know that a qualifying time could be fantastically skewed from course to course, so there is no great answer.
Class 3 District 1 can be very tough for the mentality of many of the athletes, especially in regards to building a culture of success. Most athletes from the majority of the schools will be on the outside looking in when districts comes regardless of how hard they work during the season. It will be the Festus, Herculaneum, and Notre Dame show each year, and that's to their credit, because their athletes work very hard and deserve it.

I would be for anything that could allow talented kids the opportunity to run, and not stay at home after districts, however, I also know that a qualifying time could be fantastically skewed from course to course, so there is no great answer.
09/28/2018 4:46:38 PM
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@seannunn THIS, THIS, THIS...I agree 100%: "Time qualifiers would just dumb down the sport and cause everyone to go to nothing but fast courses, which IMO RUINS THE ESSENCE OF THE SPORT. Unfortunately with state looking to be on a cupcake course from now on, I believe that is the direction we are going as a sport. To me this lessens one of the great life lessons that kids get from cross-country: life is tough, but if you work hard and do the best you can consistently, you can have success at some level and be proud of it." I personally feel that I am going to miss a somewhat challenging State course (compared to most other states at least) and am disappointed that the grittier, strength-oriented runners will have lost their "advantage" to the more fluid, finesse type kiddos that prefer the fast/flat. Shoot, if I had it my way- I'd have the kids hurdling logs, running through creeks and taking on several good hills every race. But I realize I'm a bit old school- and that cross country seems to have taken on the role of our culture in general, in that easier is better....not a fan myself.
@seannunn

THIS, THIS, THIS...I agree 100%:
"Time qualifiers would just dumb down the sport and cause everyone to go to nothing but fast courses, which IMO RUINS THE ESSENCE OF THE SPORT. Unfortunately with state looking to be on a cupcake course from now on, I believe that is the direction we are going as a sport. To me this lessens one of the great life lessons that kids get from cross-country: life is tough, but if you work hard and do the best you can consistently, you can have success at some level and be proud of it."

I personally feel that I am going to miss a somewhat challenging State course (compared to most other states at least) and am disappointed that the grittier, strength-oriented runners will have lost their "advantage" to the more fluid, finesse type kiddos that prefer the fast/flat.

Shoot, if I had it my way- I'd have the kids hurdling logs, running through creeks and taking on several good hills every race. But I realize I'm a bit old school- and that cross country seems to have taken on the role of our culture in general, in that easier is better....not a fan myself.
09/28/2018 5:24:51 PM
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My initial suggestion of qualifying time would be on certain courses approved by the board that run about the same time. Example and this is my opinion only Potosi, Hancock run close to the state course. I am aware that everyone will go to a fast course to qualify but it must be done on a certain course. Again my 2 cents worth. Have a great weekend everyone and finally great weather to run in. Good luck to all as we are 1 month away from district.
My initial suggestion of qualifying time would be on certain courses approved by the board that run about the same time. Example and this is my opinion only Potosi, Hancock run close to the state course. I am aware that everyone will go to a fast course to qualify but it must be done on a certain course. Again my 2 cents worth. Have a great weekend everyone and finally great weather to run in. Good luck to all as we are 1 month away from district.

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