Some double district/sectionals some are not?
05/10/2017 10:15:09 AM
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Does anyone else think this is a little bit unfair? I haven't checked to see how prevalent this is in other classes, but in Class 5 section 4 is being hosted with Class 4 Section 4, and and Class 5 Section 2 is being hosted with Class 3 Section 2. Class 5 Sections 1 and 3 are competing on a single sectional format. The sectional meet runs off so quickly with only 8 athletes in each event, so for those of us in a single sectional our athletes have a lot less time to recover between events compared to the double sectionals. A team competing at a double sectional has a better chance of qualifying more athletes through compared to a team in a single sectional.
Does anyone else think this is a little bit unfair? I haven't checked to see how prevalent this is in other classes, but in Class 5 section 4 is being hosted with Class 4 Section 4, and and Class 5 Section 2 is being hosted with Class 3 Section 2. Class 5 Sections 1 and 3 are competing on a single sectional format.

The sectional meet runs off so quickly with only 8 athletes in each event, so for those of us in a single sectional our athletes have a lot less time to recover between events compared to the double sectionals. A team competing at a double sectional has a better chance of qualifying more athletes through compared to a team in a single sectional.
05/10/2017 10:23:02 AM
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I agree. We are planning on doing a crazy double and time in between events at sectionals would be welcome to help that athlete qualify moving forward.
I agree. We are planning on doing a crazy double and time in between events at sectionals would be welcome to help that athlete qualify moving forward.
05/10/2017 11:42:54 AM
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Not a huge deal at districts since a many events are timed section finals with multiple sections. A HUGE deal at sectionals since there is only one final for each event. If you have 2 sectional meets at one site (like a class 4 and a class 5) then you would essentially have double the recovery time between events. Sean Nunn Raytown South
Not a huge deal at districts since a many events are timed section finals with multiple sections. A HUGE deal at sectionals since there is only one final for each event. If you have 2 sectional meets at one site (like a class 4 and a class 5) then you would essentially have double the recovery time between events.

Sean Nunn
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05/10/2017 12:00:16 PM
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Totally agree with the statements above. We are trying the same double as Bantazmo and it would be MUCH easier with the rest time given in a double sectional. Praying for a rain delay between the 2 events.
Totally agree with the statements above. We are trying the same double as Bantazmo and it would be MUCH easier with the rest time given in a double sectional. Praying for a rain delay between the 2 events.
05/10/2017 2:14:25 PM
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Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? Lack of officials or timing equipment? While I'm thankful it's going to give my son almost an hour to recover between his 800 and 3200, it makes for a really long day for some of the kids. Especially for those kids that have a 2+ hour bus ride to the meet.
Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? Lack of officials or timing equipment? While I'm thankful it's going to give my son almost an hour to recover between his 800 and 3200, it makes for a really long day for some of the kids. Especially for those kids that have a 2+ hour bus ride to the meet.
05/10/2017 2:41:35 PM
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We certainly have an a official shortage and it does save a lot of money for the state as these events are more expensive then most would think to hold. For example, it takes about 50 people to run off a track and field me correctly.
We certainly have an a official shortage and it does save a lot of money for the state as these events are more expensive then most would think to hold. For example, it takes about 50 people to run off a track and field me correctly.
05/10/2017 2:53:15 PM
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I think it is fine if there can be a double district/sectional but stick to the same time schedule with recovery on the single districts/sectionals uniformly across the state so there is not an advantage for anyone. This is a very easy fix that MSHSAA can make but has not done.
I think it is fine if there can be a double district/sectional but stick to the same time schedule with recovery on the single districts/sectionals uniformly across the state so there is not an advantage for anyone. This is a very easy fix that MSHSAA can make but has not done.
05/10/2017 8:00:59 PM
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Griffin, MSHSAA had done this in the past. Not sure where it went. Time is relative. 45 degrees with a 30 MPH north wind in Maryville is a lot different than 75 with no wind at the Cape. On the same day. Rest factor in one extreme totally different than the other. Kids run the race they are given and that is part of the process. Over 36 years my comment getting of the bus, no matter what, would have been, "Children, God doesn't give us many days like this. Let's take advantage of it." I would say that when we headed out for a workout in March in a chill factor near zero, and I would go out the door first because I, and we, believed it. It is what you, as a coach, are supposed to do. There are proper channels to complain but an open forum ain't one of them. It does a disservice to your young ones. You are giving them an excuse to not go out the door. ."
Griffin, MSHSAA had done this in the past. Not sure where it went.
Time is relative. 45 degrees with a 30 MPH north wind in Maryville is a lot different than 75 with no wind at the Cape. On the same day. Rest factor in one extreme totally different than the other.
Kids run the race they are given and that is part of the process. Over 36 years my comment getting of the bus, no matter what, would have been, "Children, God doesn't give us many days like this. Let's take advantage of it." I would say that when we headed out for a workout in March in a chill factor near zero, and I would go out the door first because I, and we, believed it. It is what you, as a coach, are supposed to do.
There are proper channels to complain but an open forum ain't one of them. It does a disservice to your young ones. You are giving them an excuse to not go out the door.

."
05/10/2017 10:51:57 PM
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Dean, I doubt that any coach is saying these things to their kids. But looking at it from a TEAM perspective, something MSHSAA doesn't seem to care about over the last 40 years or so, it does have an impact. Teams in single sectionals are at a distinct disadvantage compared to those in a double sectional. That certainly impacts teams potential to score points at State. There are many cases of kids doing what will help their team the most and sacrificing their own individual chance at a Gold. We both know I've been doing this a long time and I've never felt MSHSAA cares even a little bit about teams in T&F. They only care about getting individual champions and the team scores are an after thought. You probably feel differently. That's okay. We each have our perspective.
Dean,
I doubt that any coach is saying these things to their kids. But looking at it from a TEAM perspective, something MSHSAA doesn't seem to care about over the last 40 years or so, it does have an impact. Teams in single sectionals are at a distinct disadvantage compared to those in a double sectional. That certainly impacts teams potential to score points at State. There are many cases of kids doing what will help their team the most and sacrificing their own individual chance at a Gold. We both know I've been doing this a long time and I've never felt MSHSAA cares even a little bit about teams in T&F. They only care about getting individual champions and the team scores are an after thought. You probably feel differently. That's okay. We each have our perspective.
05/10/2017 11:18:12 PM
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@Hays Exactly how is time relative? I know you teach mathematics and so do I and the last time I checked if someone is getting more recovery than someone else they have an advantage. When we are talking about the top 4 places advancing I agree that time has nothing to do with performances but when you are asking some athletes in the state to have less recovery than others that may be competing in the same exact events that is FAR from relative. The girls I coach will compete against who they have in front of them and will take care of business and I was not complaining for them just stating a fact that the meets that have two meets happening at the same time WILL have more recovery and that again is far from relative. To follow up that MSHSAA has done this in the past does not make it correct by any stretch.
@Hays Exactly how is time relative? I know you teach mathematics and so do I and the last time I checked if someone is getting more recovery than someone else they have an advantage. When we are talking about the top 4 places advancing I agree that time has nothing to do with performances but when you are asking some athletes in the state to have less recovery than others that may be competing in the same exact events that is FAR from relative. The girls I coach will compete against who they have in front of them and will take care of business and I was not complaining for them just stating a fact that the meets that have two meets happening at the same time WILL have more recovery and that again is far from relative.

To follow up that MSHSAA has done this in the past does not make it correct by any stretch.
05/11/2017 8:18:08 AM
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[quote=griffinj12]@Hays Exactly how is time relative? I know you teach mathematics and so do I and the last time I checked if someone is getting more recovery than someone else they have an advantage. When we are talking about the top 4 places advancing I agree that time has nothing to do with performances but when you are asking some athletes in the state to have less recovery than others that may be competing in the same exact events that is FAR from relative. The girls I coach will compete against who they have in front of them and will take care of business and I was not complaining for them just stating a fact that the meets that have two meets happening at the same time WILL have more recovery and that again is far from relative. To follow up that MSHSAA has done this in the past does not make it correct by any stretch.[/quote] @griffinj12 I second this sentiment. It seems like the easiest things to fix don't get addressed. The fact that we added an entire class to the state meet instead of simply allowing more qualifiers to state by way of standards which already exist is in an of itself, mind boggling.
griffinj12 wrote:
@Hays Exactly how is time relative? I know you teach mathematics and so do I and the last time I checked if someone is getting more recovery than someone else they have an advantage. When we are talking about the top 4 places advancing I agree that time has nothing to do with performances but when you are asking some athletes in the state to have less recovery than others that may be competing in the same exact events that is FAR from relative. The girls I coach will compete against who they have in front of them and will take care of business and I was not complaining for them just stating a fact that the meets that have two meets happening at the same time WILL have more recovery and that again is far from relative.

To follow up that MSHSAA has done this in the past does not make it correct by any stretch.


@griffinj12 I second this sentiment. It seems like the easiest things to fix don't get addressed. The fact that we added an entire class to the state meet instead of simply allowing more qualifiers to state by way of standards which already exist is in an of itself, mind boggling.
05/11/2017 8:41:34 AM
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Coach Griffin, I still say that recovery is greatly affected by the humidity and temperature. When we switched to the current state meet setup in 94 with the 8 and 16 on one day and 32 and 4X8 on the other, except the years we went back to 800 prelims, it was correctly pointed out by Coach Dave Denny that the rest factor on Saturday is different than on Friday. This year for the 8-16 it is 35 minutes less on Saturday for the large school meet. We now have enough data to quantify if it has made a difference in performance and, if so, how much. Note that part of the argument used in 94 to make the change was that only having 2 heats of 3200 between the 200/800 and 4X4 replicated what happened all season long for those kids in those events. I felt, and still do, that too much time was a detriment to those kids doubling back in the 4X4. In the process, distance kids gained an advantage. If MSHSAA really was interested in team first, we would go back to the schedule we had from 84-93 where all running finals were on Saturday. I don’t think anybody wants to do that. Phoenix, if the proposal is to eliminate the sectional meet, you can have AQ. It would pass easily.
Coach Griffin, I still say that recovery is greatly affected by the humidity and temperature.
When we switched to the current state meet setup in 94 with the 8 and 16 on one day and 32 and 4X8 on the other, except the years we went back to 800 prelims, it was correctly pointed out by Coach Dave Denny that the rest factor on Saturday is different than on Friday. This year for the 8-16 it is 35 minutes less on Saturday for the large school meet. We now have enough data to quantify if it has made a difference in performance and, if so, how much.
Note that part of the argument used in 94 to make the change was that only having 2 heats of 3200 between the 200/800 and 4X4 replicated what happened all season long for those kids in those events. I felt, and still do, that too much time was a detriment to those kids doubling back in the 4X4. In the process, distance kids gained an advantage.
If MSHSAA really was interested in team first, we would go back to the schedule we had from 84-93 where all running finals were on Saturday. I don't think anybody wants to do that.
Phoenix, if the proposal is to eliminate the sectional meet, you can have AQ. It would pass easily.
05/11/2017 12:30:51 PM
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@Hays I prefer to think of it as advocating for my "young ones" as opposed to just complaining. I do not plan on discussing this specifically with my athletes, but when something like this does come up I try to turn it into a lesson on dealing with adversity. I was contemplating bringing it up with a couple of the advisory board members I know, but I wanted to get a feel for how others felt before doing so. I guess I get your point...you're saying that if it is extremely hot and humid then an athlete sitting around longer in those conditions will be worse off than if they could compete earlier and not have spent so much time in the heat and humidity? That might be plausible, but I just think that the vast, vast majority of the time the teams at the single sectional will be at a disadvantage. I can think of multiple times where I was really wishing that my kids had more recovery time at sectionals, but I cannot think of a single time where I wished that they had less. It just seems like a fairly easy fix too. Classes 1-2 have a total of 8 sectionals. Get 4 schools to host. Classes 3-5 have 12 sectionals, so get 6 schools to host. I realize that I have never worked this from the administrative end, so maybe I am being naive, and there are logistical factors that I am not aware of or thinking of? I would also really like the double sectional because then there is more track and field to enjoy. I would love to get to see one of the Class 3 or 4 sectionals compete.
@Hays I prefer to think of it as advocating for my "young ones" as opposed to just complaining. I do not plan on discussing this specifically with my athletes, but when something like this does come up I try to turn it into a lesson on dealing with adversity. I was contemplating bringing it up with a couple of the advisory board members I know, but I wanted to get a feel for how others felt before doing so. I guess I get your point...you're saying that if it is extremely hot and humid then an athlete sitting around longer in those conditions will be worse off than if they could compete earlier and not have spent so much time in the heat and humidity? That might be plausible, but I just think that the vast, vast majority of the time the teams at the single sectional will be at a disadvantage. I can think of multiple times where I was really wishing that my kids had more recovery time at sectionals, but I cannot think of a single time where I wished that they had less. It just seems like a fairly easy fix too. Classes 1-2 have a total of 8 sectionals. Get 4 schools to host. Classes 3-5 have 12 sectionals, so get 6 schools to host. I realize that I have never worked this from the administrative end, so maybe I am being naive, and there are logistical factors that I am not aware of or thinking of? I would also really like the double sectional because then there is more track and field to enjoy. I would love to get to see one of the Class 3 or 4 sectionals compete.
05/11/2017 1:35:52 PM
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@coachstove TF advisory is a great place to discuss. Like I said, their used to be a mandatory schedule published by MSHSAA for sectionals, but it has disappeared. Kids read these forums as well and their perceptions of what is said sometimes become realities even if misinterpreted.
@coachstove
TF advisory is a great place to discuss. Like I said, their used to be a mandatory schedule published by MSHSAA for sectionals, but it has disappeared.
Kids read these forums as well and their perceptions of what is said sometimes become realities even if misinterpreted.
05/12/2017 9:51:35 AM
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Not sure how unfair it is...unless you are the one attempting the double. The only double that I believe it would effect would be the 8/32. Don't see why they cant use the same time schedule as the double meets, they will increase the recovery time, with a bit more down time. Seems like the right thing to do for the kids!!! Of course we are getting on a bus at 5:45am to get to our district meet for a 10am start.
Not sure how unfair it is...unless you are the one attempting the double. The only double that I believe it would effect would be the 8/32. Don't see why they cant use the same time schedule as the double meets, they will increase the recovery time, with a bit more down time. Seems like the right thing to do for the kids!!!

Of course we are getting on a bus at 5:45am to get to our district meet for a 10am start.
05/12/2017 9:58:54 AM
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[quote=MJO21]Not sure how unfair it is...unless you are the one attempting the double. The only double that I believe it would effect would be the 8/32. Don't see why they cant use the same time schedule as the double meets, they will increase the recovery time, with a bit more down time. Seems like the right thing to do for the kids!!! Of course we are getting on a bus at 5:45am to get to our district meet for a 10am start.[/quote] @MJO21 Referring to your last line: didn't there also used to be a rule that if any school had to travel more than X (100?) miles to get to a state series meet, then the meet could not begin before 11am? Did that rule disappear too? Sean Nunn Raytown South
MJO21 wrote:
Not sure how unfair it is...unless you are the one attempting the double. The only double that I believe it would effect would be the 8/32. Don't see why they cant use the same time schedule as the double meets, they will increase the recovery time, with a bit more down time. Seems like the right thing to do for the kids!!!

Of course we are getting on a bus at 5:45am to get to our district meet for a 10am start.


@MJO21

Referring to your last line: didn't there also used to be a rule that if any school had to travel more than X (100?) miles to get to a state series meet, then the meet could not begin before 11am? Did that rule disappear too?

Sean Nunn
Raytown South
05/12/2017 10:06:59 AM
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I would like to see the state explore the possibility of getting rid of Districts and Sectionals for all classes, and just having one weekend of qualifying for State (combine two districts into one qualifying meet; cross country did it 1991 and it was called Regionals). You could then have a standard schedule for every meet in the state, and everyone would know it from day 1 of the season. There would be no disparity between meets that are double or single hosts. (this kind of format would eliminate the option of having more than one class at the same meet (double meets), unless you want the meet going till 8-10 PM). The state would save money on medals and awards (and on officials and timing companies needed). This part is not important to me, but I know it is to the powers-that-be, and it bears consideration. On a somewhat related note, I also think there should be a rotation from year to of which field events go first. Maybe this does happen, but it seems that certain field events always go first and therefore always conflict with certain races. You often don't know the meet schedule until a week or two before Districts. If we had one standard schedule for all, everyone would know from the start of the season whether to adapt their training and what kind of complications might arise from choosing certain events to compete in at the state qualifying meets.
I would like to see the state explore the possibility of getting rid of Districts and Sectionals for all classes, and just having one weekend of qualifying for State (combine two districts into one qualifying meet; cross country did it 1991 and it was called Regionals). You could then have a standard schedule for every meet in the state, and everyone would know it from day 1 of the season. There would be no disparity between meets that are double or single hosts. (this kind of format would eliminate the option of having more than one class at the same meet (double meets), unless you want the meet going till 8-10 PM).

The state would save money on medals and awards (and on officials and timing companies needed). This part is not important to me, but I know it is to the powers-that-be, and it bears consideration.

On a somewhat related note, I also think there should be a rotation from year to of which field events go first. Maybe this does happen, but it seems that certain field events always go first and therefore always conflict with certain races. You often don't know the meet schedule until a week or two before Districts. If we had one standard schedule for all, everyone would know from the start of the season whether to adapt their training and what kind of complications might arise from choosing certain events to compete in at the state qualifying meets.
05/12/2017 10:32:37 AM
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@coachebert This was brought up at the Advisory meeting last year and a follow up group is supposed to be studying your suggestion. Specifically it was suggested that we move straight to Sectionals with the same qualifying format out of that meet. It is only in discussion phase however. It should be on the agenda again at the Advisory Board meeting in June.
@coachebert
This was brought up at the Advisory meeting last year and a follow up group is supposed to be studying your suggestion. Specifically it was suggested that we move straight to Sectionals with the same qualifying format out of that meet. It is only in discussion phase however. It should be on the agenda again at the Advisory Board meeting in June.
05/12/2017 9:46:31 PM
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[quote=MJO21]Not sure how unfair it is...unless you are the one attempting the double. The only double that I believe it would effect would be the 8/32. Don't see why they cant use the same time schedule as the double meets, they will increase the recovery time, with a bit more down time. Seems like the right thing to do for the kids!!! Of course we are getting on a bus at 5:45am to get to our district meet for a 10am start.[/quote] @MJO21 I know of a few kids trying the 400/800 double. The Alberto Juantorena, or "El Caballo". Look him up. My point supporting Coach Stove's original post, is if you are trying to score team points at State, it is much easier for my team to get my kid qualified if I'm in a double Sectional, while it is much more difficult for your kid in a single Sectional. That impacts both the kid and the Team's potential to score in both events due to the time schedule at Sectionals.
MJO21 wrote:
Not sure how unfair it is...unless you are the one attempting the double. The only double that I believe it would effect would be the 8/32. Don't see why they cant use the same time schedule as the double meets, they will increase the recovery time, with a bit more down time. Seems like the right thing to do for the kids!!!

Of course we are getting on a bus at 5:45am to get to our district meet for a 10am start.


@MJO21 I know of a few kids trying the 400/800 double. The Alberto Juantorena, or "El Caballo". Look him up. My point supporting Coach Stove's original post, is if you are trying to score team points at State, it is much easier for my team to get my kid qualified if I'm in a double Sectional, while it is much more difficult for your kid in a single Sectional. That impacts both the kid and the Team's potential to score in both events due to the time schedule at Sectionals.
05/14/2017 11:21:12 AM
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@seannunn I remember the 100 mile rule being in the TF manual not long ago, and the 1 time it affected us I contacted the host school who told me that MSHSAA had told them it was more of a recommendation and not a requirement. So we ended up leaving an hour earlier than planned.
@seannunn I remember the 100 mile rule being in the TF manual not long ago, and the 1 time it affected us I contacted the host school who told me that MSHSAA had told them it was more of a recommendation and not a requirement. So we ended up leaving an hour earlier than planned.

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