Has this ever happened before?
10/23/2018 8:16:07 AM
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I know courses vary, and kids are not all running to win vs. just qualify, but looking at the class 4 district 1 vs. 2, it is amazing to me that in just comparing times, the winning district 1 boys time was not even top 30 in district 2 times. In fact, 75 kids beat the cut off time in that district just based on time. Again, I know courses vary and all of that, and my XC knowledge is very little, but that is amazing to me.
I know courses vary, and kids are not all running to win vs. just qualify, but looking at the class 4 district 1 vs. 2, it is amazing to me that in just comparing times, the winning district 1 boys time was not even top 30 in district 2 times. In fact, 75 kids beat the cut off time in that district just based on time. Again, I know courses vary and all of that, and my XC knowledge is very little, but that is amazing to me.
10/23/2018 10:09:57 AM
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@JoshFreeman Though it’s clear District 2 is stronger, you can’t really compare times because the course at District 1 was much more difficult. There’s always disparities like this. Last year we were in District 2, and we got 5th. While a team we beat convincingly all season made it to State in District 3/Section 2 with much slower times.
@JoshFreeman Though it's clear District 2 is stronger, you can't really compare times because the course at District 1 was much more difficult.

There's always disparities like this. Last year we were in District 2, and we got 5th. While a team we beat convincingly all season made it to State in District 3/Section 2 with much slower times.
10/23/2018 10:42:57 AM
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My uneducated .02 The course is much of the reason. While I can't compare the "difficulty" factor between the District courses - I can compare times when athletes were running on the same course. Look at the times from the runners who ran the Patriot Classis the week before. There were runners from District 1 and 2 among the top runners at Castlewood. Then look at the drop off of the District 1 runners at Jackson. The drop off is across the board among the runners. They all did not get slower in one week. My son ran at Jackson last weekend - he said the "soft" ground due to the rain made it feel like he could not run as fast as he expected. While not as soft as the mud run at Stan Nelson - it was still "soft" Please do not take this that I am taking anything away from the District 2 performances - they were amazing for sure! Next weekend will be exciting for sure!
My uneducated .02

The course is much of the reason. While I can't compare the "difficulty" factor between the District courses - I can compare times when athletes were running on the same course. Look at the times from the runners who ran the Patriot Classis the week before. There were runners from District 1 and 2 among the top runners at Castlewood. Then look at the drop off of the District 1 runners at Jackson. The drop off is across the board among the runners. They all did not get slower in one week.

My son ran at Jackson last weekend - he said the "soft" ground due to the rain made it feel like he could not run as fast as he expected. While not as soft as the mud run at Stan Nelson - it was still "soft"

Please do not take this that I am taking anything away from the District 2 performances - they were amazing for sure!

Next weekend will be exciting for sure!
10/23/2018 11:01:20 AM
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It's a great example of why there should never be qualifying times in cross country. The 30th place times for boys in the districts run in the KC area were 17:49 in district 6, 18:08 in district 7 and 17:27 in district 8. Those are some very competitive districts with several teams that will be competing for a podium spot in Jeff City. Contrast that with a 30th place time of 16:42 in district 2. The district 2 course looks to be even faster than Camdenton which is known to be one of the fastest courses in the state. Never fear -- the course at Oak Hills Golf Center will sort everything out for us.
It's a great example of why there should never be qualifying times in cross country. The 30th place times for boys in the districts run in the KC area were 17:49 in district 6, 18:08 in district 7 and 17:27 in district 8. Those are some very competitive districts with several teams that will be competing for a podium spot in Jeff City. Contrast that with a 30th place time of 16:42 in district 2. The district 2 course looks to be even faster than Camdenton which is known to be one of the fastest courses in the state.

Never fear -- the course at Oak Hills Golf Center will sort everything out for us.
10/23/2018 11:14:49 AM
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Francis Park was new to everyone, but proved to be very fast. Though not completely flat, it had a great flow and there was no wind at all. Add to that this is an incredibly loaded District on the boys side. You had 5 of the top ten boys team in the State (last year's results) in that one District. District 2 has been pretty deep on the boys side for the past few years (it was not always that way), and you moved in three teams -- SLU, Webster Groves, and Ladue -- that finished 1, 2, 3 in District 3 last year. I can count at least two Districts Webster Groves boys would have won, yet they finished 5th on Saturday. Why did the State do that, and why does District 2 have one more boys team than any other District in the State, and two more teams than most? I have no idea. I say bring on the super-districts and/or super-sectionals. Fewer meets=fewer officials, fewer timing companies, and fewer expenses for the State, and more of the best teams will make it to State.
Francis Park was new to everyone, but proved to be very fast. Though not completely flat, it had a great flow and there was no wind at all.

Add to that this is an incredibly loaded District on the boys side. You had 5 of the top ten boys team in the State (last year's results) in that one District. District 2 has been pretty deep on the boys side for the past few years (it was not always that way), and you moved in three teams -- SLU, Webster Groves, and Ladue -- that finished 1, 2, 3 in District 3 last year. I can count at least two Districts Webster Groves boys would have won, yet they finished 5th on Saturday.

Why did the State do that, and why does District 2 have one more boys team than any other District in the State, and two more teams than most? I have no idea.

I say bring on the super-districts and/or super-sectionals. Fewer meets=fewer officials, fewer timing companies, and fewer expenses for the State, and more of the best teams will make it to State.
10/23/2018 1:00:51 PM
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District 2 is one tough district for both boys and girls-unfairly so compared to other districts, which is why I'm always advocating for major changes to our qualifying system and find ways to more fairly align district and sectional meets. A good example of this is last years sectional 1 and 2 that were both run at Parkway Central back to back. Look at the time differences. While it's tough to compare courses, Francis Park seems to be one of the faster courses-Perhaps only Castlewood and Arnold Park (maybe Northwest?) are faster in St. Louis. Jackson City Park is slower than it appears-while I wouldn't call it real hilly, it does have it's ups and downs that can slow momentum. The park grass is regular park grass that isn't very fast-just not mowed everywhere and this past week there were areas that were sloppy wet and soft that slowed things down. I would compare the speed of Jackson to something slightly faster than Jefferson Barracks, Blackburn Park, or the previous Parkway Central course before the changes this year. I've been working on a good system for years to find accurate time comparisons between courses, but its hard to do, especially when course and weather conditions can vary.
District 2 is one tough district for both boys and girls-unfairly so compared to other districts, which is why I'm always advocating for major changes to our qualifying system and find ways to more fairly align district and sectional meets. A good example of this is last years sectional 1 and 2 that were both run at Parkway Central back to back. Look at the time differences. While it's tough to compare courses, Francis Park seems to be one of the faster courses-Perhaps only Castlewood and Arnold Park (maybe Northwest?) are faster in St. Louis. Jackson City Park is slower than it appears-while I wouldn't call it real hilly, it does have it's ups and downs that can slow momentum. The park grass is regular park grass that isn't very fast-just not mowed everywhere and this past week there were areas that were sloppy wet and soft that slowed things down. I would compare the speed of Jackson to something slightly faster than Jefferson Barracks, Blackburn Park, or the previous Parkway Central course before the changes this year. I've been working on a good system for years to find accurate time comparisons between courses, but its hard to do, especially when course and weather conditions can vary.
10/23/2018 10:46:09 PM
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This topic is brought up every year! Class 4, District 2 (4/2) had the top four teams to come out of Sectional 1, but got 3, 5, 6 & 8 at state. Impressive, but not enough to overthrow the system. If it was a sweep at state for a couple of years, then sure maybe, but all of the courses are different. To make it fair, run all meets on a track or on the same course back-to-back-to-back.... Of course this is not going to happen. What is the solution? I don't know. I'm not sure of a way to put a multiplier on a course and say that times are, on average, 3.5 or 10.5 seconds slower or faster. I'm sure somebody has the times in a database that can crunch them. But it doesn't matter. It may be pouring rain in KC with gusty winds and be calm, cool and very pleasant in St. Louis or southern MO, or visa versa. It is also not fair to let the fastest times into Sectionals and State from earlier in the year just because. For example, a team last year had a 1-5 average of 16:09 in Sectionals and finished second while another team in a different Sectional had an average of 16:26, and also finished second. The other second place teams at the other Sectionals had averages of 17:03 and 16:25. The team with the 16:26 ended up winning state. The first example team finished 7th. There was only team that finished in the top 3 at state which had won Sectionals. My kids graduated and I have no dog in this discussion. No multiplier will help little Johnny or Suzie qualify for the next race. Put in the work, stay healthy and good things will happen. Peace.
This topic is brought up every year! Class 4, District 2 (4/2) had the top four teams to come out of Sectional 1, but got 3, 5, 6 & 8 at state. Impressive, but not enough to overthrow the system. If it was a sweep at state for a couple of years, then sure maybe, but all of the courses are different. To make it fair, run all meets on a track or on the same course back-to-back-to-back.... Of course this is not going to happen. What is the solution?

I don't know. I'm not sure of a way to put a multiplier on a course and say that times are, on average, 3.5 or 10.5 seconds slower or faster. I'm sure somebody has the times in a database that can crunch them. But it doesn't matter. It may be pouring rain in KC with gusty winds and be calm, cool and very pleasant in St. Louis or southern MO, or visa versa.

It is also not fair to let the fastest times into Sectionals and State from earlier in the year just because. For example, a team last year had a 1-5 average of 16:09 in Sectionals and finished second while another team in a different Sectional had an average of 16:26, and also finished second. The other second place teams at the other Sectionals had averages of 17:03 and 16:25. The team with the 16:26 ended up winning state. The first example team finished 7th. There was only team that finished in the top 3 at state which had won Sectionals.

My kids graduated and I have no dog in this discussion. No multiplier will help little Johnny or Suzie qualify for the next race. Put in the work, stay healthy and good things will happen. Peace.
10/24/2018 8:57:02 AM
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I don't think anyone on this thread advocated for qualifying times or a multiplier; I know I did not. I'm not sure who you're arguing against with that point. The fact is we have a system which can be improved to get more of the best runners to State. Do we change that or we do we keep things the same? My solution would be this: put two districts together and qualify 8 teams and 60 individuals. You would have four of these Super-District meets in each class. At the two Super-Sectionals, qualify 8 teams and 60 individuals. You would have two of these meets in each class. At State you would have 16 teams and approximately the same number of individual qualifiers.
I don't think anyone on this thread advocated for qualifying times or a multiplier; I know I did not. I'm not sure who you're arguing against with that point.

The fact is we have a system which can be improved to get more of the best runners to State. Do we change that or we do we keep things the same?

My solution would be this: put two districts together and qualify 8 teams and 60 individuals. You would have four of these Super-District meets in each class.

At the two Super-Sectionals, qualify 8 teams and 60 individuals. You would have two of these meets in each class.

At State you would have 16 teams and approximately the same number of individual qualifiers.
10/24/2018 9:38:27 AM
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The real beauty of our sport is that District 1 and District 2 will match up this weekend at Big Driver and answer these question by racing head to head. What happened last Saturday at Jackson City Park and Francis Park will be old news.
The real beauty of our sport is that District 1 and District 2 will match up this weekend at Big Driver and answer these question by racing head to head. What happened last Saturday at Jackson City Park and Francis Park will be old news.
10/25/2018 9:18:27 AM
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@coach_flanagan While I love that our sport is less subjective than other sports-line them up and let them run, it also doesn't mean that the best 8 teams will be racing at the sectional meet or that the best however many individuals will be there. There are certainly teams and individuals that can make the case that they are good enough to be there, but because of the way our system is designed they are done with their season. There are probably a handful of teams around the state that if given the chance to run at state would beat a team or two, but never made it past their district meet. @dirt_road I agree with @coachebert No one is advocating for qualifying times or multipliers. We realize that you can't compare cross country races and different courses. However, there are ways we can control making the field a more level playing field. The MSHSAA philosophy is that they want equal geographic representation at the state championship meet. They argue that the people who didn't make it wouldn't win anyway. The problem with this philosophy is that they are missing the whole point. For most athletes and teams it's not about winning a championship, it's about getting to state. Ask most varsity runners and they will tell you their goal is to make it to state. I've gotten tired over the years of having conversations with athletes who are shattered because they didn't make it to state and want to know why slower/lesser athletes are there, I just have to sympathize with them and tell them this is the system that the state has put in place. We should be doing better for our athletes.
@coach_flanagan While I love that our sport is less subjective than other sports-line them up and let them run, it also doesn't mean that the best 8 teams will be racing at the sectional meet or that the best however many individuals will be there. There are certainly teams and individuals that can make the case that they are good enough to be there, but because of the way our system is designed they are done with their season. There are probably a handful of teams around the state that if given the chance to run at state would beat a team or two, but never made it past their district meet.

@dirt_road I agree with @coachebert No one is advocating for qualifying times or multipliers. We realize that you can't compare cross country races and different courses. However, there are ways we can control making the field a more level playing field. The MSHSAA philosophy is that they want equal geographic representation at the state championship meet. They argue that the people who didn't make it wouldn't win anyway. The problem with this philosophy is that they are missing the whole point. For most athletes and teams it's not about winning a championship, it's about getting to state. Ask most varsity runners and they will tell you their goal is to make it to state. I've gotten tired over the years of having conversations with athletes who are shattered because they didn't make it to state and want to know why slower/lesser athletes are there, I just have to sympathize with them and tell them this is the system that the state has put in place. We should be doing better for our athletes.
10/25/2018 11:01:48 AM
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I remember one of the last years before the Blue Springs Lake course was closed (2003ish). That was a silly fast (and easy) course. KC ran our sectional meet there. Someone created a spreadsheet with all of the times for class 4 boys from the 4 sectional meets, and KC area boys were ranked like 1-25. And of course KC area boys did NOT end up sweeping all of the all-state spots at state the next week. As someone said earlier, Oak Hills Lake sorted it all out a week later. (Pity that won't be the case after this year.) If the time for 30th place in district 2 was 16:42, I would personally bet it isn't 5000 meters. I can't say that for sure, obviously, since I have never been there, but I have never seen a district that was so stacked that it had 30 guys running that far under 17:00. Sean Nunn Raytown South
I remember one of the last years before the Blue Springs Lake course was closed (2003ish). That was a silly fast (and easy) course. KC ran our sectional meet there. Someone created a spreadsheet with all of the times for class 4 boys from the 4 sectional meets, and KC area boys were ranked like 1-25. And of course KC area boys did NOT end up sweeping all of the all-state spots at state the next week. As someone said earlier, Oak Hills Lake sorted it all out a week later. (Pity that won't be the case after this year.)

If the time for 30th place in district 2 was 16:42, I would personally bet it isn't 5000 meters. I can't say that for sure, obviously, since I have never been there, but I have never seen a district that was so stacked that it had 30 guys running that far under 17:00.

Sean Nunn
Raytown South
10/25/2018 11:31:17 AM
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Question: Of the 586 district meets, boys and girls, held since Class 4A went to 8 district qualifying meets, have 4 teams from the district placed in the state meet? Of that number, how many times have all 4 placed in the top 8 at the state meet?
Question: Of the 586 district meets, boys and girls, held since Class 4A went to 8 district qualifying meets, have 4 teams from the district placed in the state meet?
Of that number, how many times have all 4 placed in the top 8 at the state meet?
10/25/2018 11:51:13 AM
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@Hays 2009, Class 4, District 7, 4 of the top 6 girls teams at state that year, I believe. I'm sure there are several others, but this year stands out. This is a prime example of why we should consider super-districts, if the state chooses to go to 5 classes.
@Hays

2009, Class 4, District 7, 4 of the top 6 girls teams at state that year, I believe. I'm sure there are several others, but this year stands out.

This is a prime example of why we should consider super-districts, if the state chooses to go to 5 classes.
10/25/2018 11:52:03 AM
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[quote=seannunn]I remember one of the last years before the Blue Springs Lake course was closed (2003ish). That was a silly fast (and easy) course. KC ran our sectional meet there. Someone created a spreadsheet with all of the times for class 4 boys from the 4 sectional meets, and KC area boys were ranked like 1-25. And of course KC area boys did NOT end up sweeping all of the all-state spots at state the next week. As someone said earlier, Oak Hills Lake sorted it all out a week later. (Pity that won't be the case after this year.) If the time for 30th place in district 2 was 16:42, I would personally bet it isn't 5000 meters. I can't say that for sure, obviously, since I have never been there, but I have never seen a district that was so stacked that it had 30 guys running that far under 17:00. Sean Nunn Raytown South [/quote]The Blue Springs Lake course was very short the last few years it was used. Here are the boys results from the district 7 meet that day you speak of. Most "Fast" courses are just short courses that no one wants to admit are short. Chances are that any course that is labeled as a "speedway" is at least 100m short. 10/25/03 12:18 PM DISTRICT CHAMIONSHIPS BLUES SPRINGS LAKE, MISSOURI - Saturday 10/25/03 Event 1 Varsity Boys 5,000 Meter Run Results by Order of Finish - Saturday 10/25/03 RANK ATHLETE NAME SCHOOL TIME SCORE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 MICHAEL STEPHENS LEE'S SUMMIT 15:25.00 1 2 MICAH SCHMIDT RAYTOWN 15:29.00 2 3 PAT TWEEDY ROCKHURST 15:31.00 3 4 TRAVIS CRUTCHER BLUE SPRINGS 15:34.00 4 5 ADAM SCROGHAMS LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 15:34.00 5 6 NICK SMALL BLUE SPRINGS 15:36.00 6 7 JOSH ROLLINS BLUE SPRINGS 15:37.00 7 8 STEPHEN POOL RAY PEC 15:41.00 8 9 JOSH EHRHARD LEE'S SUMMIT 15:44.00 9 10 CHRIS FENCL ROCKHURST 15:44.00 10 11 KYLE DOHERTY LEE'S SUMMIT 15:48.00 11 12 JACOB BOONE LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 15:50.00 12 13 ANDREW JONES BLUE SPRINGS 15:50.00 13 14 DAN HARKINS BLUE SPRINGS 15:57.00 14 15 TYLER WEST LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 15:57.00 15 16 ADAM FISHCER LEE'S SUMMIT 15:58.00 16 17 JARED GRAHAM BLUE SPRINGS 16:02.00 17 18 JUSTIN SNEED BELTON 16:03.00 18 19 BEN JOHNSTON LEE'S SUMMIT 16:07.00 19 20 DAVID FUCHS LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 16:10.00 20 21 CHRIS LEDIN RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:12.00 21 22 DAVID SMITH ROCKHURST 16:13.00 22 23 ANDREW TAYLOR BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 16:15.00 23 24 JEFF POSKIN ROCKHURST 16:19.00 24 25 CHRIS ADAMS RAYTOWN 16:23.00 25 26 GEOFF HUGHES RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:23.00 26 27 JAKE COBURN BLUE SPRINGS 16:25.00 27 28 MIKE FARMER RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:28.00 28 29 LEREMIE SHAFFER RAY PEC 16:30.00 29 30 COREY McEWEN LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 16:30.00 30 31 ANDREW LANGFORD ROCKHURST 16:32.00 31 32 RYAN JENSEN RAYTOWN 16:35.00 32 33 BRAD JOCHEMS LEE'S SUMMIT 16:37.00 33 34 KENNY SHILLINGS BELTON 16:45.00 34 35 BOBBY BLANTON RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:45.00 35 36 RYAN REYNOLDS LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 16:48.00 36 37 DEVIN ALUMBAUGH RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:49.00 37 38 MIKE TIMBERLAKE ROCKHURST 16:49.00 38 39 JAMIE MAGGARD ROCKHURST 17:00.00 39 40 LEE RABY BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:01.00 40 41 MIKE DINGES BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:03.00 41 42 JAY CRAM RAYTOWN 17:07.00 42 43 JEFF LONGCOY LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 17:12.00 43 44 NATHAN PHELPS RAYTOWN SOUTH 17:15.00 44 45 DUSTIN ICENHOUR RAY PEC 17:23.00 45 46 MATT BUTTERFIELD BELTON 17:30.00 46 47 MAX SCHUMAN BELTON 17:31.00 47 48 TIM GUERTIN RAYTOWN 17:31.00 48 49 MIKE TOHLEN RAY PEC 17:35.00 49 50 AUSTIN HICKS BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:36.00 50 51 BRANDON HOWLAND BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:37.00 51 52 BRYCE BURKS BELTON 17:47.00 52 53 KYLE WESTERHEIDE LEE'S SUMMIT 17:48.00 53 54 JORDAN SHOUSE RAY PEC 17:49.00 54 55 NICK LAUGHLIN BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:59.00 55 56 JD COLE RAYTOWN SOUTH 18:02.00 56 57 JON ADAMS RAY PEC 18:04.00 57 58 JEFF SHIELDS BELTON 18:07.00 58 59 RYAN STEINMEYER BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 18:14.00 59 60 JIM SHAUGHNESSY RAY PEC 18:19.00 60 TEAM SCORES Rank School Total 1 2 3 4 5 *6 *7 *8 *9 ==== ======================= ===== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== 1 BLUE SPRINGS 44 4 6 7 13 14 17 27 Total time: 1:18:34.00 Average: 15:42.48 2 LEE'S SUMMIT 56 1 9 11 16 19 33 53 Total time: 1:19:02.00 Average: 15:48.24 3 LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 82 5 12 15 20 30 36 43 Total time: 1:20:01.00 Average: 16:00.12 4 ROCKHURST 90 3 10 22 24 31 38 39 Total time: 1:20:19.00 Average: 16:03.48 5 RAYTOWN 129 2 25 32 42 48 Total time: 1:23:05.00 Average: 16:37.00 6 RAYTOWN SOUTH 147 21 26 28 35 37 44 56 Total time: 1:22:37.00 Average: 16:50.00 7 RAY PEC 185 8 29 45 49 54 57 60 Total time: 1:24:58.00 Average: 16:59.36 8 BELTON 197 18 34 46 47 52 58 Total time: 1:25:36.00 Average: 17:07.12 9 BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 205 23 40 41 50 51 55 59 Total time: 1:25:32.00 Average: 17:06.24
seannunn wrote:
I remember one of the last years before the Blue Springs Lake course was closed (2003ish). That was a silly fast (and easy) course. KC ran our sectional meet there. Someone created a spreadsheet with all of the times for class 4 boys from the 4 sectional meets, and KC area boys were ranked like 1-25. And of course KC area boys did NOT end up sweeping all of the all-state spots at state the next week. As someone said earlier, Oak Hills Lake sorted it all out a week later. (Pity that won't be the case after this year.)

If the time for 30th place in district 2 was 16:42, I would personally bet it isn't 5000 meters. I can't say that for sure, obviously, since I have never been there, but I have never seen a district that was so stacked that it had 30 guys running that far under 17:00.

Sean Nunn
Raytown South
The Blue Springs Lake course was very short the last few years it was used. Here are the boys results from the district 7 meet that day you speak of. Most "Fast" courses are just short courses that no one wants to admit are short. Chances are that any course that is labeled as a "speedway" is at least 100m short.

10/25/03 12:18 PM DISTRICT CHAMIONSHIPS

BLUES SPRINGS LAKE, MISSOURI - Saturday 10/25/03

Event 1 Varsity Boys 5,000 Meter Run

Results by Order of Finish - Saturday 10/25/03

RANK ATHLETE NAME SCHOOL TIME SCORE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 MICHAEL STEPHENS LEE'S SUMMIT 15:25.00 1
2 MICAH SCHMIDT RAYTOWN 15:29.00 2
3 PAT TWEEDY ROCKHURST 15:31.00 3
4 TRAVIS CRUTCHER BLUE SPRINGS 15:34.00 4
5 ADAM SCROGHAMS LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 15:34.00 5
6 NICK SMALL BLUE SPRINGS 15:36.00 6
7 JOSH ROLLINS BLUE SPRINGS 15:37.00 7
8 STEPHEN POOL RAY PEC 15:41.00 8
9 JOSH EHRHARD LEE'S SUMMIT 15:44.00 9
10 CHRIS FENCL ROCKHURST 15:44.00 10
11 KYLE DOHERTY LEE'S SUMMIT 15:48.00 11
12 JACOB BOONE LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 15:50.00 12
13 ANDREW JONES BLUE SPRINGS 15:50.00 13
14 DAN HARKINS BLUE SPRINGS 15:57.00 14
15 TYLER WEST LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 15:57.00 15
16 ADAM FISHCER LEE'S SUMMIT 15:58.00 16
17 JARED GRAHAM BLUE SPRINGS 16:02.00 17
18 JUSTIN SNEED BELTON 16:03.00 18
19 BEN JOHNSTON LEE'S SUMMIT 16:07.00 19
20 DAVID FUCHS LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 16:10.00 20
21 CHRIS LEDIN RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:12.00 21
22 DAVID SMITH ROCKHURST 16:13.00 22
23 ANDREW TAYLOR BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 16:15.00 23
24 JEFF POSKIN ROCKHURST 16:19.00 24
25 CHRIS ADAMS RAYTOWN 16:23.00 25
26 GEOFF HUGHES RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:23.00 26
27 JAKE COBURN BLUE SPRINGS 16:25.00 27
28 MIKE FARMER RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:28.00 28
29 LEREMIE SHAFFER RAY PEC 16:30.00 29
30 COREY McEWEN LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 16:30.00 30
31 ANDREW LANGFORD ROCKHURST 16:32.00 31
32 RYAN JENSEN RAYTOWN 16:35.00 32
33 BRAD JOCHEMS LEE'S SUMMIT 16:37.00 33
34 KENNY SHILLINGS BELTON 16:45.00 34
35 BOBBY BLANTON RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:45.00 35
36 RYAN REYNOLDS LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 16:48.00 36
37 DEVIN ALUMBAUGH RAYTOWN SOUTH 16:49.00 37
38 MIKE TIMBERLAKE ROCKHURST 16:49.00 38
39 JAMIE MAGGARD ROCKHURST 17:00.00 39
40 LEE RABY BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:01.00 40
41 MIKE DINGES BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:03.00 41
42 JAY CRAM RAYTOWN 17:07.00 42
43 JEFF LONGCOY LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 17:12.00 43
44 NATHAN PHELPS RAYTOWN SOUTH 17:15.00 44
45 DUSTIN ICENHOUR RAY PEC 17:23.00 45
46 MATT BUTTERFIELD BELTON 17:30.00 46
47 MAX SCHUMAN BELTON 17:31.00 47
48 TIM GUERTIN RAYTOWN 17:31.00 48
49 MIKE TOHLEN RAY PEC 17:35.00 49
50 AUSTIN HICKS BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:36.00 50
51 BRANDON HOWLAND BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:37.00 51
52 BRYCE BURKS BELTON 17:47.00 52
53 KYLE WESTERHEIDE LEE'S SUMMIT 17:48.00 53
54 JORDAN SHOUSE RAY PEC 17:49.00 54
55 NICK LAUGHLIN BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 17:59.00 55
56 JD COLE RAYTOWN SOUTH 18:02.00 56
57 JON ADAMS RAY PEC 18:04.00 57
58 JEFF SHIELDS BELTON 18:07.00 58
59 RYAN STEINMEYER BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 18:14.00 59
60 JIM SHAUGHNESSY RAY PEC 18:19.00 60

TEAM SCORES

Rank School Total 1 2 3 4 5 *6 *7 *8 *9
==== ======================= ===== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== ====

1 BLUE SPRINGS 44 4 6 7 13 14 17 27

Total time: 1:18:34.00
Average: 15:42.48

2 LEE'S SUMMIT 56 1 9 11 16 19 33 53

Total time: 1:19:02.00
Average: 15:48.24

3 LEE'S SUMMIT NORTH 82 5 12 15 20 30 36 43

Total time: 1:20:01.00
Average: 16:00.12

4 ROCKHURST 90 3 10 22 24 31 38 39

Total time: 1:20:19.00
Average: 16:03.48

5 RAYTOWN 129 2 25 32 42 48

Total time: 1:23:05.00
Average: 16:37.00

6 RAYTOWN SOUTH 147 21 26 28 35 37 44 56

Total time: 1:22:37.00
Average: 16:50.00

7 RAY PEC 185 8 29 45 49 54 57 60

Total time: 1:24:58.00
Average: 16:59.36

8 BELTON 197 18 34 46 47 52 58

Total time: 1:25:36.00
Average: 17:07.12

9 BLUE SPRINGS SOUTH 205 23 40 41 50 51 55 59

Total time: 1:25:32.00
Average: 17:06.24
10/25/2018 12:22:42 PM
Coach
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Posts: 1283
@CoachSwift I know you would get that one. Can you find anymore? One is more recent.
@CoachSwift
I know you would get that one. Can you find anymore? One is more recent.
10/25/2018 1:21:53 PM
Coach
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 851
@Hays Last year the District 2 boys put 4 in the top 8. 3 Parkway West 5 Lafayette 6 Marquette 8 Kirkwood I think District 2 boys took all 4 sectional 1 spots from 2010-2013 but did not put them all in the top 8.
@Hays

Last year the District 2 boys put 4 in the top 8.
3 Parkway West
5 Lafayette
6 Marquette
8 Kirkwood

I think District 2 boys took all 4 sectional 1 spots from 2010-2013 but did not put them all in the top 8.
10/25/2018 1:46:06 PM
Coach
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Posts: 1283
@Big_Al_2112 Got it, and that is the only only other time a district has placed 4 teams in the top 8 in 37 years. District 2 did qualify all 4 those 4 years from 10-13and earned a total of 2 rd place trophies in those 4 years. Of the 25 times a district placed all 4 teams at the state meet, 10 of those times no trophy was earned. Of the 278 sectional meets, 15 times have there been the possibility that a top 8 team could have left home. Four times the 4 teams finished in the top 6. The the other 11 times, they all finished in the top 7. If the goal is to get at least the top 8, the system almost always works. Next question: What is the lowest place that an individual not on a qualifying team that finished All-State? District or Sectional?
@Big_Al_2112
Got it, and that is the only only other time a district has placed 4 teams in the top 8 in 37 years.
District 2 did qualify all 4 those 4 years from 10-13and earned a total of 2 rd place trophies in those 4 years. Of the 25 times a district placed all 4 teams at the state meet, 10 of those times no trophy was earned.
Of the 278 sectional meets, 15 times have there been the possibility that a top 8 team could have left home. Four times the 4 teams finished in the top 6. The the other 11 times, they all finished in the top 7.
If the goal is to get at least the top 8, the system almost always works.
Next question: What is the lowest place that an individual not on a qualifying team that finished All-State? District or Sectional?
10/25/2018 2:31:49 PM
Coach
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 10
@Hays So I think you are illustrating exactly the source of frustration for some. Only twice in 37 years have 4 teams from the same district all finished in the top 8 at State, and the second time it happened, the state responded by putting 2 additional state qualifying teams into the district.
@Hays

So I think you are illustrating exactly the source of frustration for some.

Only twice in 37 years have 4 teams from the same district all finished in the top 8 at State, and the second time it happened, the state responded by putting 2 additional state qualifying teams into the district.
10/25/2018 6:04:40 PM
Coach
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Posts: 2054
Wow. Now that is a hell of a stat Taln8
Wow. Now that is a hell of a stat Taln8
10/25/2018 6:11:18 PM
Coach
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Posts: 2054
I think the other thing lost in those stats is how the other teams finishing outside of the top four at a loaded district or sectional would change the dynamic of the actual stats of the race by making the pack more competitive and limiting the performance of low stick teams that have a poor 3-5. Also, let's not forget the obviously training choices that must be made earlier to "get out" to state with little in the tank for the state meet at the end of a month of conference, districts, sectionals, and state quality meets. Numbers tell some of the story but it goes way behind stats. This year we obviously benefited but since coaching XC after my time with varsity football in 2009 we have been in the St. Louis loaded district. It's tough and that is why so many are call for five classes. By the way what is the word around the campfire on this for XC?
I think the other thing lost in those stats is how the other teams finishing outside of the top four at a loaded district or sectional would change the dynamic of the actual stats of the race by making the pack more competitive and limiting the performance of low stick teams that have a poor 3-5. Also, let's not forget the obviously training choices that must be made earlier to "get out" to state with little in the tank for the state meet at the end of a month of conference, districts, sectionals, and state quality meets. Numbers tell some of the story but it goes way behind stats. This year we obviously benefited but since coaching XC after my time with varsity football in 2009 we have been in the St. Louis loaded district. It's tough and that is why so many are call for five classes. By the way what is the word around the campfire on this for XC?

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