State 3200 Schedule
04/17/2019 8:31:33 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 21
Based on the schedule on the MSHSAA website, the 3200 will yet again be run during the hottest part of the day in late May. Is there no way to change this in the future and run the longest race of the meet in safer conditions? Maybe run both girls and boys Friday evening?
Based on the schedule on the MSHSAA website, the 3200 will yet again be run during the hottest part of the day in late May. Is there no way to change this in the future and run the longest race of the meet in safer conditions? Maybe run both girls and boys Friday evening?
04/17/2019 9:14:02 PM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 139
I would love this, but I'm not holding my breath.
I would love this, but I'm not holding my breath.
04/17/2019 9:26:25 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1283
@R-Taylor When the Sports Medicine Advisory Committee tells track to do so. Their emails are on the MSHSAA website.
@R-Taylor
When the Sports Medicine Advisory Committee tells track to do so.
Their emails are on the MSHSAA website.
04/18/2019 8:32:59 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 351
@Hays If they are sports medicine people they haven't already reached this conclusion and heard the calls from coaches for years now. It shouldn't be that difficult of a call.
@Hays

If they are sports medicine people they haven't already reached this conclusion and heard the calls from coaches for years now.

It shouldn't be that difficult of a call.
04/18/2019 9:45:11 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 21
@Hays I’m afraid it could take an athlete getting hurt before MSHSAA changes this then. It seems obvious to schedule a 3200 meter run at a cooler time of the day at that time of the year. Put kids safety ahead of inconveniences from schedule changes.
@Hays
I'm afraid it could take an athlete getting hurt before MSHSAA changes this then. It seems obvious to schedule a 3200 meter run at a cooler time of the day at that time of the year. Put kids safety ahead of inconveniences from schedule changes.
04/18/2019 10:29:37 AM
User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 12
Day 1 4x800 first 3200 last Day 2 800 first( or 2k steeplechase or racewalks) 1600 last All Distance athletes have least harsh conditions/safest heat-related conditions Stop drooling ... it’ll never happen.
Day 1
4x800 first
3200 last

Day 2
800 first( or 2k steeplechase or racewalks)
1600 last
All Distance athletes have least harsh conditions/safest heat-related conditions

Stop drooling ... it'll never happen.
04/18/2019 11:07:07 AM
Coach
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 36
Start the running events later in the evening. 3-4 pm maybe? Have field events in the morning so that they do not conflict with the running events.
Start the running events later in the evening. 3-4 pm maybe? Have field events in the morning so that they do not conflict with the running events.
04/24/2019 11:43:05 PM
User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 15
Until the A.D.s and coaches from the schools group together and petition MSHSAA for a change for the safety of the kids, this will never change. Yes, the top 3200 kids at state are tough as nails, and will run through anything. Unfortunately this often times can be the biggest danger. As experienced as they may be, they are still young racers and may not understand or adhere to the signs of heat related illness. Unfortunately, as serious of an issue as this may be, MSHSAA is not proactive on these types of issues. Now if it comes to random district re-assignments they are at the forefront of the curve.
Until the A.D.s and coaches from the schools group together and petition MSHSAA for a change for the safety of the kids, this will never change. Yes, the top 3200 kids at state are tough as nails, and will run through anything. Unfortunately this often times can be the biggest danger. As experienced as they may be, they are still young racers and may not understand or adhere to the signs of heat related illness.
Unfortunately, as serious of an issue as this may be, MSHSAA is not proactive on these types of issues. Now if it comes to random district re-assignments they are at the forefront of the curve.
05/21/2019 9:12:35 AM
User
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2
@maxracer Maybe MSHSAA will act now that Class 2 Boys 3200m State runner from West Platte passed out after only 2 laps. I just hope the kid has no ill-effects. The day before water was being passed out in Girls 3200m races. Had to have been 95 degrees on the track.
@maxracer

Maybe MSHSAA will act now that Class 2 Boys 3200m State runner from West Platte passed out after only 2 laps. I just hope the kid has no ill-effects. The day before water was being passed out in Girls 3200m races. Had to have been 95 degrees on the track.
05/21/2019 9:57:47 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 42
I am on the state advisory committee and I will bring this up in June. It has been talked about almost every year, many ideas have been presented. I understand everyone's comments and complaints. Years ago a young runner from Ste. Gen also fell out and never quite was herself again. But I will put it on my items to discuss.
I am on the state advisory committee and I will bring this up in June. It has been talked about almost every year, many ideas have been presented. I understand everyone's comments and complaints. Years ago a young runner from Ste. Gen also fell out and never quite was herself again. But I will put it on my items to discuss.
05/22/2019 11:56:23 AM
Coach
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 172
I hesitate to put in my opinion of the matter, but I will just so people know not everyone thinks there is a "Safety Issue" and not everyone thinks the order of events should be adjusted. In my opinion there are couple options if change is considered a must...However I personally do not think change is necessary. I am sure that there are more than just the two situations listed above AND I do not want any kids to get hurt or to suffer long term difficulties....BUT.... Seriously? If you are not conditioned for 3200m (9-13 minutes) by the 15th week of the season there are other things that need to be considered in order to make the 3200m "safe". What kind of training are you doing??? How is your team camp set up? How long are they at the track in the heat? In the bleachers? How is the overall health of the individual? Not just hydration, but diet and rest as well. If your not ready for 3200m in the heat then maybe are you probably shouldn't be at state anyway and as we added a 5th class and now with a 6th class coming even more kids who are not prepared are going to be competing. I see this in xc quite often, especially in the lower classes where runners are competing in a 5k in a mid-October heatwave and going down. Then to find out they had a football game or softball game the night before...."that is their main sport" meaning they did not train for the race, conditions, and their body just could not handle the overload that was put on it...I am sure that the same thing happens in track, with soccer & baseball. As for the young lady from Ste.Gen for that to become a long term situation I could only guess (I do not know) that there was another issues that led to her problems. I would have to assume that dehydration was a major issue, however that could only be a part of it. Was she ill before leading to a weaker body that could not handle the race, race pace, conditions? I do not know the situation, but having dealt with people that had long term effects from running in heat it is usually related to dehydration and the ones I have dealt with have been in the marathon, (not in a 3200 9-13 minute race) The boy last week went down after the second lap? If that leads to a safety concern for 3200m then we also need to discuss the EXACT safety concern in the 800 and 1600, as well since he went down after 800m. Another situation that may lead to these problems is a runner going out way beyond their level trying to make something happen at the State meet or a coach (i'm guilty of this) convincing a kid to get out too hard to separate from the field and then hope to try to hold on. I personally believe that we as coaches are more responsible for these kinds in these situations than the temperature. Recognizing heat related illness? Heat related illness did not occur in that race, it was set up though out that entire day, maybe week. We have to make sure our kids are trained to handle the race. Trained to handle the heat. (we trained in sweatshirts for 2 days of practice last week anticipating the rise in temperatures and nearly forced water into them). We have to make sure our kids are properly hydrated, have a proper diet, and have proper rest. If they don't and we put them in that situation it is not the weather that was the problem...it is us. I am not for changing, but one of the easiest changes that we can make that will have little impact on any other part of the meet are move the to a later start time, even the field events. And TWO, especially because of 6 classes coming move to a 3 day meet. Opinions on those two things...they are totally controlled by $$$$...which should not matter if a schools major concern is safety!! Moving the 3200m only to later pretty much assures that teams have to spend the night. Moving to a 3 day meet means another night in a hotel...not many school districts will be happy about that cost. You have to do that so you don't get home very late and then have to leave at 7:30a to get back to track. And remember as more and more kids qualify for state the availability of lodging is also decreasing, and the cost will go up. Weather issues. As of now when we have weather issues we are at the track til 8pm...what if we start at 4pm...will we stay til midnight? 1am, 2am?...what if it is Saturday?? IF so, again you will need to spend the night to assure you get some quality rest, which is easily a factor that effects kids, especially in the longer races. I do not mean to offend anyone, and as I stated repeatedly these are only my opinions on the matter, Good luck to everyone this weekend, Michael Olszowka
I hesitate to put in my opinion of the matter, but I will just so people know not everyone thinks there is a "Safety Issue" and not everyone thinks the order of events should be adjusted. In my opinion there are couple options if change is considered a must...However I personally do not think change is necessary.

I am sure that there are more than just the two situations listed above AND I do not want any kids to get hurt or to suffer long term difficulties....BUT....

Seriously? If you are not conditioned for 3200m (9-13 minutes) by the 15th week of the season there are other things that need to be considered in order to make the 3200m "safe".

What kind of training are you doing??? How is your team camp set up? How long are they at the track in the heat? In the bleachers? How is the overall health of the individual? Not just hydration, but diet and rest as well.

If your not ready for 3200m in the heat then maybe are you probably shouldn't be at state anyway and as we added a 5th class and now with a 6th class coming even more kids who are not prepared are going to be competing. I see this in xc quite often, especially in the lower classes where runners are competing in a 5k in a mid-October heatwave and going down. Then to find out they had a football game or softball game the night before...."that is their main sport" meaning they did not train for the race, conditions, and their body just could not handle the overload that was put on it...I am sure that the same thing happens in track, with soccer & baseball.

As for the young lady from Ste.Gen for that to become a long term situation I could only guess (I do not know) that there was another issues that led to her problems. I would have to assume that dehydration was a major issue, however that could only be a part of it. Was she ill before leading to a weaker body that could not handle the race, race pace, conditions? I do not know the situation, but having dealt with people that had long term effects from running in heat it is usually related to dehydration and the ones I have dealt with have been in the marathon, (not in a 3200 9-13 minute race)

The boy last week went down after the second lap? If that leads to a safety concern for 3200m then we also need to discuss the EXACT safety concern in the 800 and 1600, as well since he went down after 800m.

Another situation that may lead to these problems is a runner going out way beyond their level trying to make something happen at the State meet or a coach (i'm guilty of this) convincing a kid to get out too hard to separate from the field and then hope to try to hold on.

I personally believe that we as coaches are more responsible for these kinds in these situations than the temperature. Recognizing heat related illness? Heat related illness did not occur in that race, it was set up though out that entire day, maybe week. We have to make sure our kids are trained to handle the race. Trained to handle the heat. (we trained in sweatshirts for 2 days of practice last week anticipating the rise in temperatures and nearly forced water into them). We have to make sure our kids are properly hydrated, have a proper diet, and have proper rest. If they don't and we put them in that situation it is not the weather that was the problem...it is us.

I am not for changing, but one of the easiest changes that we can make that will have little impact on any other part of the meet are move the to a later start time, even the field events. And TWO, especially because of 6 classes coming move to a 3 day meet.

Opinions on those two things...they are totally controlled by $$$$...which should not matter if a schools major concern is safety!!

Moving the 3200m only to later pretty much assures that teams have to spend the night. Moving to a 3 day meet means another night in a hotel...not many school districts will be happy about that cost. You have to do that so you don't get home very late and then have to leave at 7:30a to get back to track.

And remember as more and more kids qualify for state the availability of lodging is also decreasing, and the cost will go up.

Weather issues. As of now when we have weather issues we are at the track til 8pm...what if we start at 4pm...will we stay til midnight? 1am, 2am?...what if it is Saturday?? IF so, again you will need to spend the night to assure you get some quality rest, which is easily a factor that effects kids, especially in the longer races.

I do not mean to offend anyone, and as I stated repeatedly these are only my opinions on the matter,

Good luck to everyone this weekend,
Michael Olszowka
05/22/2019 12:09:35 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 351
@MJO21 While some of the things you say are valid, I don't think the coaches and lack of preparation is the biggest factor. There is a reason they run the collegiate distance events in the evening. Why are there so many issues at the beginning of XC season? It's not just fitness, it's the heat. There are plenty of fit and top level athletes that struggle with the heat of an after school XC meet in August and September. Once your core temperature heats up, there is no way to bring it back down during the race. You can have rested, hydrated, eaten well, be fit, wore white and everything else you can think of. How can you really prepare for a 95 degree day (of which we know it's hotter on the track) when the sports starts in February and those aren't the conditions you are running in the majority of the season. It is especially worse when the temps are down most of the spring and then it pops hot right at the end. District/Sectional week was cooler and rainy for many places, then it was mid 80's for Sectional/Small Class state. There are many factors we can't control in how the heat hits an athlete even when they are prepared properly, but the time in which the race is run is one we can. I'm not sure how running in the morning would affect anything if all two miles were run on day one and all 4 x 800's on day two.
@MJO21

While some of the things you say are valid, I don't think the coaches and lack of preparation is the biggest factor.

There is a reason they run the collegiate distance events in the evening.

Why are there so many issues at the beginning of XC season? It's not just fitness, it's the heat.

There are plenty of fit and top level athletes that struggle with the heat of an after school XC meet in August and September.

Once your core temperature heats up, there is no way to bring it back down during the race.

You can have rested, hydrated, eaten well, be fit, wore white and everything else you can think of.

How can you really prepare for a 95 degree day (of which we know it's hotter on the track) when the sports starts in February and those aren't the conditions you are running in the majority of the season.

It is especially worse when the temps are down most of the spring and then it pops hot right at the end.

District/Sectional week was cooler and rainy for many places, then it was mid 80's for Sectional/Small Class state.

There are many factors we can't control in how the heat hits an athlete even when they are prepared properly, but the time in which the race is run is one we can.

I'm not sure how running in the morning would affect anything if all two miles were run on day one and all 4 x 800's on day two.
05/22/2019 12:13:02 PM
Coach
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 39
Moving the 3200 to a cooler part of the day allows our kids to compete on a more level playing field with states like Illinois. (Illinois has their 3200 in the morning.) Kids that are trying to earn scholarships are going to run faster times when the weather is cooler. The Class 4 3200 from a few years ago is a good example. I think 8th place was around 9:19 when the race was held later in the evening due to the weather.
Moving the 3200 to a cooler part of the day allows our kids to compete on a more level playing field with states like Illinois. (Illinois has their 3200 in the morning.) Kids that are trying to earn scholarships are going to run faster times when the weather is cooler. The Class 4 3200 from a few years ago is a good example. I think 8th place was around 9:19 when the race was held later in the evening due to the weather.
05/22/2019 8:49:09 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 285
I'm all for racing the 3200 during a cooler time of the day or evening. I've always been bothered that we seem to make decisions not based on what's in the best interest of our athletes, but what is most convenient. Every year we have this same conversation, however, I'm struck by the double standard that in August and September when I bring up that we are dumb for running cross country meets in the afternoon or mid-day when it's 90-95 degrees, no one seems to think there is a problem with this. While we are more heat acclimated by the late summer, it's never safe to race in that kind of heat and humidity. If we are going to be concered with racing in the heat in May, then we should be concerened all of the time.
I'm all for racing the 3200 during a cooler time of the day or evening. I've always been bothered that we seem to make decisions not based on what's in the best interest of our athletes, but what is most convenient. Every year we have this same conversation, however, I'm struck by the double standard that in August and September when I bring up that we are dumb for running cross country meets in the afternoon or mid-day when it's 90-95 degrees, no one seems to think there is a problem with this. While we are more heat acclimated by the late summer, it's never safe to race in that kind of heat and humidity. If we are going to be concered with racing in the heat in May, then we should be concerened all of the time.
05/23/2019 8:39:49 AM
User
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5
What is the percentage of 3200m athletes that are in field events? I am guessing not a lot except maybe in smaller schools. Why couldn't they run it at 9 or 9:30 when field events start and move the start of the other running events back 45 minutes to an hour? The meet should still finish around the same time.
What is the percentage of 3200m athletes that are in field events? I am guessing not a lot except maybe in smaller schools. Why couldn't they run it at 9 or 9:30 when field events start and move the start of the other running events back 45 minutes to an hour? The meet should still finish around the same time.
05/23/2019 8:44:45 AM
Coach
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 851
@bullit82 I would prefer the 3200m be run at 9 PM. If we want the kids to perform their best, then late at night is better.
@bullit82

I would prefer the 3200m be run at 9 PM. If we want the kids to perform their best, then late at night is better.
05/23/2019 8:52:33 AM
User
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5
@Big_Al_2112 that's why marathons are run at night? Just saying
@Big_Al_2112 that's why marathons are run at night? Just saying
05/23/2019 9:04:08 AM
Coach
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 851
[quote=bullit82]@Big_Al_2112 that's why marathons are run at night? Just saying[/quote] We are talking about teenagers running 3200m and not adults running 42195m.
bullit82 wrote:
@Big_Al_2112 that's why marathons are run at night? Just saying


We are talking about teenagers running 3200m and not adults running 42195m.
05/23/2019 9:06:52 AM
User
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5
@Big_Al_2112 yeah, but same rules apply you are fresher in the morning when you haven't been sitting around all day in the sun when its 80-90 degrees out and it's not like I'm talking about 6 in the morning when most marathons, half marathons, 10k's start. Show me any type of science that says the best time to run distance races is late at night compared to in the morning?
@Big_Al_2112 yeah, but same rules apply you are fresher in the morning when you haven't been sitting around all day in the sun when its 80-90 degrees out and it's not like I'm talking about 6 in the morning when most marathons, half marathons, 10k's start. Show me any type of science that says the best time to run distance races is late at night compared to in the morning?
05/23/2019 9:34:31 AM
Coach
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 851
@bullit82 My experience is that people are more "awake" and their bodies are "warmed up" for hard running later in the day. All things being equal, I will run better later in the day compared to in the morning. That is not to say that people can't run well in the morning. No scientific studies, just my own experience. I would also prefer to run with the sun already set as opposed to waiting until it is already rising. No sun (night) [b]>[/b] low angle sun (morning/evening) [b]>[/b] overhead sun (afternoon) I do agree that the morning would be much better than what we have now. I would take that over what we do currently. I would just personally prefer to see the races run at night!
@bullit82

My experience is that people are more "awake" and their bodies are "warmed up" for hard running later in the day. All things being equal, I will run better later in the day compared to in the morning. That is not to say that people can't run well in the morning. No scientific studies, just my own experience.

I would also prefer to run with the sun already set as opposed to waiting until it is already rising.

No sun (night) > low angle sun (morning/evening) > overhead sun (afternoon)

I do agree that the morning would be much better than what we have now. I would take that over what we do currently. I would just personally prefer to see the races run at night!

You must be logged in to comment.

Click Here to Log In.